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Chat about Guidance with InternetRules

curi:
FI doesn’t have a lot of guided learning. it requires ppl to be able to guide themselves some. reading stuff is one of the most guided parts. i have lists of stuff ppl can read.
most ppl aren’t very good at guiding themselves instead of being told what to do
like it’s useful to learn a variety of standard things that our society knows. some economics, psychology, history, grammar, science, etc.
a lot of ppl won’t go find resources and work on that on their own
it’s not realistic to get really good at FI without knowing mainstream stuff too like an “educated” person would know
ppl are used to a teacher telling them what to do
InternetRules:
so like with games i dont think there is much guided learning in say OW. but if u were following the SMO speedrunning guide that would be like guided learning how to speedrun
curi:
but they need their own “motor” as Rand calls it. their own ability to run their own lives. a lot of why they dislike criticism is because they feel like it bosses them around or makes them do things. they don’t know how to run their own lives and use criticism to make their life better.
InternetRules:
with OW u can be like "what things should i learn? forwards backwards? mechanics? team comps? counters?"
curi:
OW has decent guidance available. you can vod review your own play, watch strategy videos, watch vod reviews done by top players, etc
there are videos with guidance about things to practice
but it’s less guided than school
there isn’t a textbook telling you stuff step by step
InternetRules:
so like if u have someone vod review your gameplay and they are like "u r really bad at X" then that would be more guided if u try to practice X
curi:
and yeah some speedruns have really good guidance like smallant’s guide vids
that’s better guidance than schools give
InternetRules:
if they say like "u should practice X, Y, and Z in what ever order u want" that would be less guided i htink
if they were like "do X, then Y, then Z" that would be more guided
curi:
guidance can be a problem b/c it’s hard for one set of instructions to work well for everyone. ppl have different goals, preferences, prior knowledge, likes, dislikes, questions, confusions, etc.
often ppl try to fit themselves to the guidance even though it’s not a great fit. but sometimes they won’t do that at all or complain a bunch. their attitude depends on how badly they want to learn it and what alternatives they have and the social status of the guide.
InternetRules:
right now i think im trying to figure out like what guidance and what counts a guidance.
curi:
if they are happy to treat someone as an authority they will defer more and try to adjust themselves to make it work, and blame themselves if it doesn’t. but with people who society doesn’t endorse as a good master/leader/etc then people can be way more hostile.
InternetRules:
Tooey seems very much like that
curi:
guidance is like advice, tips, instructions ... stuff that tells you how or what to do.
InternetRules:
there was a part that said he like caused some of his students or something, some ppl he adviced they killed themselfs cuz they didnt like life or something
so you can also guide your self
curi:
it’s always partial. ppl can’t control you entirely with every detail. even with like slaves being whipped to pick cotton, no one told them how to close their hand around the cotton and which muscles to use. they were expected to make it work somehow and whipped if they screwed it up to motivate them.
InternetRules:
instead of like someone else telling u "ur bad at X" you could watch your own vod and be like "im bad at X" then start working on X. both of those would be guidance i think
curi:
actually a lot of school is like that. teachers are really bad at teaching but they know how to keep punishing kids to pressure the kid to learn it himself somehow.
pioneers don’t have guidance. they go exploring and try to figure things out. like taking a wagon to oregon in the past without a good map or knowing what you’ll do there, and you hopefully arrive and try to figure out how to make a life there. you know some basic stuff in advance like there are trees and rivers. you can farm and hunt. but you figure out details yourself.
when a new video game comes out, some ppl explore it and figure out what works well in the game and whether it’s a good game. most ppl play badly at first and then watch some guides to tell them what’s good.
InternetRules:

often ppl try to fit themselves to the guidance even though it’s not a great fit. but sometimes they won’t do that at all or complain a bunch. their attitude depends on how badly they want to learn it and what alternatives they have and the social status of the guide.

so you should try to change the guidance in some way if it doesnt fit u i think. maybe its like "ok u should learn strategy then mechanics" but u really like mechanics and doing things like trickshots so u could decide to do that first before strategy parts.

that would be like changing the guidance to suit you better
and you could look at specific parts of the strategy part of the guidance to help you get more trickshots, like u could learn about positioning which helps you stay alive longer and be in better spots so you get more and better trickshots

guidance can be a problem b/c it’s hard for one set of instructions to work well for everyone. ppl have different goals, preferences, prior knowledge, likes, dislikes, questions, confusions, etc.

im trying to think aobut the "ppl have different goals part" and how that effects guidance

preferences, likes, and dislikes make immediate sense to me.

if a guide is telling u how to be good at the game and like win more, but u specifically just want to do trickshots and dont care to much about winning, u just dont want to be like hard throwing with ur trickshots, then i think thats like a different goal than the guide is intending
so i guess like the info section in discord has some guided stuff. like "Everyone should read the FI articles" and saying some stuff that ppl should read and discuss and like to introduce yourself
unguided would be like if u had the FI articles but u didnt tell ppl to read them. and ppl like just by them selfs think "oh FI articles those seem relevant and important i should read those"
ok so theres like benefits to guided stuff and also drawbacks i think
like if ur trying to do something new that no one has really done before but ur super use to using a bunch of guided learning that would be harder
curi:
i’d have more guided stuff but it takes work to make it
InternetRules:

guidance is like advice, tips, instructions ... stuff that tells you how or what to do.

so like telling someone about the "site:" command on search engines would be guidance about how to use search engines

when a new video game comes out, some ppl explore it and figure out what works well in the game and whether it’s a good game. most ppl play badly at first and then watch some guides to tell them what’s good.

so like if u watch pros play and try to copy that, i think the pros gameplay would also be guidance
curi:
sure re “site:”. guiding ppl for how to do small things is common and often works well. there are YT videos on how to repair a leaky sink or change a bike tire or whatever.
InternetRules:

pioneers don’t have guidance. they go exploring and try to figure things out. like taking a wagon to oregon in the past without a good map or knowing what you’ll do there, and you hopefully arrive and try to figure out how to make a life there. you know some basic stuff in advance like there are trees and rivers. you can farm and hunt. but you figure out details yourself.

so like maybe after a year guidance would be given to like ppl trying to get to the west coast, like the pioneers who already made it could give tips like:
after X miles food is really scarce for Y amount of miles, so make sure u have enough food.
and that would be guidance
curi:
how to learn to think well is harder to guide. it’s a big, broad topic and the best actions depend on what you already know, what emotions block what options, your available resources, what your friends think and how much you want to stay similar to them, etc. it gets really complicated. that’s one of the reasons for more self-guidance. you can take into account your situation way better than someone who is writing an essay for everyone and who doesn’t know about your personal situation.
InternetRules:
so like some ppl could write guidance on specific things, like mb your more compatible with objectivism than CR, so you start with objectivism, or the other way around, and then u could like and guided content for those specific topics
so you could guide your self on what to start learning first i guess

how to learn to think well is harder to guide. it’s a big, broad topic and the best actions depend on what you already know, what emotions block what options, your available resources, what your friends think and how much you want to stay similar to them, etc. it gets really complicated. that’s one of the reasons for more self-guidance. you can take into account your situation way better than someone who is writing an essay for everyone and who doesn’t know about your personal situation.

so like having an overview of like how to learn to think well could be good, it like could point you to a bunch of stuff then u can decide which ones to start with. but having a direct guide like: "start with objectivism, then CR, then read szasz, then popper
" would not work out for everyone
wait CR is pretty related to popper i think its like kind of his philosophy
curi:
ya CR = popper
InternetRules:
but like guided learning like that might work for some ppl who are already compatible, but if for some reason u really hate objectivism then it would be better to start with other stuff
curi:
when people change guidance, there’s a risk they screw it up. they often don’t understand why it is the way it is or what kind of changes would work well or not.
InternetRules:
so like maybe u want to do popper before  deutch, but like reading deutch first might help u understand popper better
curi:
an example of changing guidance is it says “practice X” and you don’t want to do that b/c you think it’s boring or you think you’re already good at X and don’t need practice.
InternetRules:
so like if its like "learn addition, then times tables" u might think your already good enough at addition and just skip to times tables
but u dont even know what 5 + 3 is off hand
curi:
books that aren’t “educational” – like textbooks and homeschool work books – are generally pretty unguided. like The Fountainhead doesn’t tell you what steps to take to change your life. science books will tell you some science ideas but they won’t guide you through practicing it, thinking through questions you have, and otherwise learning it. they usually make it pretty easy to read the book and keep thinking “yeah i agree” but then after you’re done you can’t actually do the math or figure out what’ll happen in some experiments because you didn’t really learn it well.
pro gameplay is an example. that helps compared to not having an example. but it isn’t guidance like “do this then do this”. you have to decide what to do from the example.
InternetRules:
so i think like figuring out bosses in vindictus is more self guided
curi:
legendarma makes tutorials but ya lots of ppl just practice until they figure it out
ok with you to blog this chat?
InternetRules:
its fine to blog this chat yes


Elliot Temple on September 23, 2020

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